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Carl Mattison: I work on all sizes of things, from a small powder bath all the way up to a full-blown ten million dollar build, renovations, new builds, investors, investors who've never known what they're doing before, investors who are experienced. By doing all of that, I really get to just have a great year every year where I'm never just doing the same thing all the time. I think it makes me happy.
Welcome to The Justin Landis Show, your real estate podcast about having conversations, building relationships, and creating freedom.
Justin Landis: Today I have a special guest with me that I am so excited about. Carl Mattison is here today. Carl, thanks for being here.
Carl Mattison: Thanks for having me.
Justin Landis: Carl is the owner of Carl Mattison Design. We have worked together on a lot of different projects, and I'm excited for you to bring your design experience and expertise to our audience today. Let me start with, we have worked together, personally building our second house now. You've done all the design on our first house and this house, and a good number of spec houses I've done, you've done all the design on that, and you've helped my clients, the people that we help buy and sell houses. Tell me a little bit about how you can work across such a wide range.
Carl Mattison: Sure. I think I can do that because when I was a kid, if someone said, could you mow my lawn, I was always like, yeah, I could mow your lawn. The second thing was somebody would come to me and say, hey, I know you're artistic, could you paint a sign? And I would say, yeah, I can paint a sign. And then I was in a swim group, and someone said, next year could you teach a class? And I said, sure, I can. So over the years in my design career, I think I've always said, yes, of course I can. And by doing that, it kind of opened up the world of opportunity with investors and homeowners, with small projects and big projects. And by doing that, I think I keep what my little child self had, which was diversity in what I do. And I don't get bored, I don't get stagnant. I work on all sizes of things, from a small powder bath all the way up to a full-blown ten million dollar build, renovations, new builds, investors who've never known what they're doing before, investors who are experienced. So by doing all of that, I really get to have a great year every year where I'm never just doing the same thing all the time. I think it makes me happy.
Justin Landis: Well, one of the things I see as a common thread throughout that, and I know from working together, you even call yourself a renovation counselor. You definitely do take on the role of a counselor in all of those. Why do you think that's so important as someone's trying to figure out what do I do with this house, how do I make it the way that I want, and how do I make good decisions?
Carl Mattison: I think right now there are so many options out there, an overwhelming number of options. Step away from the Pinterest is one of my favorite phrases, and it's going everywhere, it's Pinterest, it's Houzz, it's Instagram, it's TV shows, it's what did my sister do last week in another town. We're all communicating so much about it. I think having someone that you know is on your side as a counselor, whether it be a renovation or a new build, I use renovation counselor, it's one of my little fun taglines on my business card, but that one just indicates to people, they put the word counselor in their mind, and they know that what I'm going to do is listen to them first. A counselor is supposed to listen to you first, and then advise from listening. That's what I try to do, and I bring in all of those diverse background pieces and parts I've touched to each conversation.
Justin Landis: Let's talk about that from the real estate agent perspective, since that's our audience. You've worked with a lot of agents, your husband's an awesome real estate agent, so you have good experience being around agents. What would you say are some of the biggest challenges for real estate agents around renovations and construction when they're going to do work to the house?
Carl Mattison: Well, I think there are many real estate agents in Atlanta, the metro area especially, who really know exactly what they're wanting to do in real estate. So if they've already defined what they want to do, they know how to pass off the other stuff. I think what happens is people either assume, or they just say one of the words I try not to use all the time, which is 'I think.' And they will go into a project, not in a malicious or bad way, but if someone is going into a home and they realize the price point is what they want, the neighborhood, the school district, whether it's a 1990s build, new construction, an empty lot, or a big renovation, even one that just needs a bathroom done, someone will say, unfortunately, 'I think.' And when they say 'I think,' that puts them behind the eight ball. They get stuck into this thing that someone heard. And if that buyer, or someone with that buyer, sometimes it's dad who's with a buyer, hears 'I think,' it starts to make someone either believe it or question their knowledge on it. The best way to do it is to pull in someone else to advise. It's not a real estate agent's job to do everything. There are other people who do great stuff, and other people defer to real estate agents to do what they do, which is negotiate and make sure it's the best, fastest, most proper deal for the right reasons for the buyer and seller. It's not their job necessarily to decide all the renovation or the changes.
Justin Landis: So how would you advise real estate agents to collaborate with you, with a designer, with somebody who actually knows, to help our clients make a really informed decision?
Carl Mattison: One is reach out and connect and learn about designers, contractors, and others in your area. You're already reaching out and building relationships with mortgage brokers, lenders, and banks, you have all that information, you know as much as you can about neighborhoods, school districts, zones, different boundaries. Why shouldn't you, in the beginning, know about the others? I often get people connecting to me during the process where they have a buyer and want to connect them to me, and I'll find out after five, six, seven, eight text conversations, they actually don't understand what I do. They've seen my pretty pictures, but they don't exactly know what I do, and they hear the word contractor and think they know exactly what's going to happen there. So connect the way you would to mortgage brokers or closing attorneys, figure out who you want to partner with, preload that information and focus on getting those relationships started, because then you're doing no one a disservice.
Justin Landis: That's great. So I see a lot of confusion around this, where people know they might need help, but they don't know, do I need an architect, do I need a designer, an interior designer, a builder? Can you kind of explain the roles that people take in that for everybody?
Carl Mattison: Sure. I think the first thing is to understand someone's vision. What are they seeing themselves? And not to waste an architect's or a contractor's time, because they're looking for hard information. Someone like me walks in and says, based on my experience, being my own renovator at times, I do invest, being someone who's owned 25 or 30 homes in Atlanta, knowing the Atlanta market and the types of neighborhoods, I can walk in for a nominal fee. Sometimes contractors and architects will too, just to be there to advise, having those people already researched before you even start the process.
Justin Landis: That is so good, because the wide range of things you've seen, I find to be very valuable, because every neighborhood is different, price points are different. We both live in a historic neighborhood, and if you're in a neighborhood like that, it's completely different than being a couple blocks over. How can the real estate agent start to learn that? Is it just to know they need to reach out to you, or should they try to learn this stuff themselves?
Carl Mattison: I don't think everyone has to learn everything themselves. No one has to know everything, and saying I don't know is not a bad thing, it has to come with the caveat of I don't know, but I know someone. If you know someone who can get us that information, get your buyer that information, get their family the information, maybe, I keep referring to this, it's kind of a funny thing in the industry, like, do we get dad the information, is dad helping you buy your first house? You think, well, my first house was a house I had to renovate, so why not have someone on your side, whether it's dad, mom, or an uncle, who knows. You want to satisfy those questions by already connecting to someone else and getting information before, and always having your list. If you're already compiling lists of plumbers and electricians to connect to after someone's in due diligence, why not have a list of architects, contractors, or designers you may want to work with too? You already know that you're going to be interested in buying a home of whatever sort, if you know it's going to be a light or hard renovation, you already know that when you're looking at houses. People are not magically going into this blindfolded, they're looking at houses on Zillow and elsewhere themselves, they're literally knowing. If you know that much, you already know what you think you might be doing with it.
Justin Landis: Let's talk about once they actually decide, I am going to do a renovation. What are the biggest challenges, hurdles, or things people need to be thinking about as they actually start to do the work?
Carl Mattison: I think the biggest thing people find challenging is understanding the space, and that starts really with just a definition of what's a load-bearing wall. People hear that all the time, and what it means is something that supports something above it, it has a load on it, it has weight on it. People will go into a house, the house looks wonderful, could be great for a few years, things change, they don't know, they call in someone, they've already talked to a contractor, they're worried about it, and they say, we keep getting told this wall can't move, but we overpaid two years ago for this because our real estate agent said, sure, I think so, that'd be a lovely idea to open up the kitchen to a living room. And they find out there's a bathroom above this space and it'll fall in. That doesn't mean it can't be done, for the right amount of money and effort you probably can do it, but there are also challenges, say, with a historic district, maybe you can't, because it could affect something upstairs so much it would have to be modified too. You cannot predict everything, but it's good to know more in the early stages, you've got to know what you're working with.
Justin Landis: So you mentioned load-bearing walls and the historic district. Same thing on the exterior, right?
Carl Mattison: I think a good example of that is bathrooms. Someone will see a space and say, okay, it's a four-two, we see that other room, we don't know what it is, we're going to call it a five-two, but it's not really a bedroom, we'll make it a bedroom, it's big enough. Now we have a five-two, we'd love to put in another bathroom, we can see it between these two rooms, we can see where it would go, but that window, oh, we'll just move that window. Often people will call in a contractor who's not familiar with a historic district, and they'll say, oh yeah, we could just change that window to a transom window above the tub, and you find out you can't change that window because it affects the outside of the home. In historic districts in Atlanta, everyone is affected by the outside of a home, the inside affects the outside, but they're focused on how it looks from the outside. So if they say that window cannot move, that window cannot move. Take this as a PSA from someone who lives in a historic district and has built and renovated multiple houses: if you're trying to do something in one of these districts, do it with an expert, do it with somebody who has done it before and knows what they're doing, because the amount of headache, time, and money you can waste is massive.
Justin Landis: So we've got the exterior, we've got load-bearing walls. What are other things as people move forward that cause some of the biggest challenges for them?
Carl Mattison: Timing. I think people are very worried about timing all the time, they think it's going to go faster, they're planning for something, assuming something. Just being open-minded and realizing that nothing is going to be exactly on time, there will be mistakes, will calm your soul to know you've already thought about these things, not that you're setting yourself up for failure, you want to set yourself up for success.
Justin Landis: Speaking of setting up for success, this is a vulnerable show, very transparent, so maybe we should use Amaris, my wife, and I as an example. What about dealing with the emotional side, because there's an investment piece of it, and you're so good at that. When we do investments, I feel like it's pretty not emotional, you usually present us stuff and I say, this looks amazing, let's do it, and we just do it. But that's not the same as working with someone who's living in the house. How do you help people work through that, because it is for sure a challenge?
Carl Mattison: It's a big challenge. I had a therapist a few years ago, and I only got one thing out of that therapist. It was, if it's important to you, it's important. And I started relating that and putting it into all aspects of work. When I look at someone who's frazzled, freaking out, worried about a budget, bothered by a contractor they don't think is listening to them, I'm their designer and I'm their liaison, and I always want to make sure they understand that I am hearing them, and I'm trying to hear the contractor too, and I'm trying to find out for them, as their renovation counselor, their new build counselor, representing them and being their liaison. That phrase helps me let people know that I care and that I'm listening to them, and I'm going to work with them to help find a solution. They are not lost in the mire, they're not falling into quicksand. And then I let them know that it could be worse, it's okay, let's look into how to solve this. We all, just like real estate agents, want to get to the finish line, we're not trying to undermine someone.
Justin Landis: I think that's a takeaway for real estate agents listening, because that works for anything, hey, if it's important to you, it's important to me, I see you, I'm on your team, I'm your liaison, I'm your guide helping you do it. What would you say has been the most challenging part of working with Amaris and I on this new house we're building?
Carl Mattison: I won't forget, I was late for a meeting that we were all at, the builder was there, and Amaris and you weren't, and I heard that you said, Amaris, let's just start this meeting because, be serious, this is your house.
Justin Landis: Right, right.
Carl Mattison: I do have a joke in the industry, it's my house until it's done. I use that all the time, if it's a renovation I say, well, it's my house until you move back in. That just means I treat it like my house, I treat it like it was my own renovation, with the same care I would for myself, down to the minutia of the little things. I make sure I follow up, we notate and work on it. And we make a joke if someone's spouse isn't coming into the conversation as much, but luckily I know you, and I trust that Amaris and you know what you're communicating. You'll notice at times I include you on emails when I feel it's better to loop everyone in, but obviously you trust your wife and she makes major decisions and it's absolutely working out great.
Justin Landis: It always has.
Carl Mattison: Yeah, it has, we've never had a bad process.
Justin Landis: No, we have not. One of the things I've loved that you've done, and I think this is helpful for real estate agents to hear, is you do a great job of, we stick to the budget, but there are certain places where it's worth it to do extra or to splurge. How do you think through that? Because this might help real estate agents think, hey, where should people spend their money, or where is it most important? How do you decide when we push forward and do something special, and when we've got to watch our cost here?
Carl Mattison: I do have another little phrase, which is just what I say to people: do you have any money? And it's not like, do you really have any money, it's just that people are not always fully transparent about the entire budget of every tiny little thing and their end goal. When I hear people say, my mother's living with me, we're putting in an elevator for her, we're making sure the rooms are oriented for our young children as they grow, we are not intending to leave here for a very long time because we've lived in two other homes, then I can understand that family more. And by understanding the family more, I can give better advice to say, you're the homeowner occupant, you're going to be here a long time, you're not an investor. An investor, if you're a real estate agent working with an investor buying a house to flip, and I have weird definitions on that, but if you're going to do the work and then look to make a profit, you're going into this totally differently than someone working with a homeowner occupant. That homeowner occupant gets to spend more money if they choose, and I can figure it out through the process because, unlike real estate agents, I don't think they have as long a relationship with clients as I do, I see these people every day or every couple days, I talk to them all the time, and over that process I get to continuously learn those things. The questions come up two-thirds through the process: is it worth it to splurge on this stone, is it worth it to splurge on that light for the foyer, is it worth it to splurge on this other item? Sure, if you're going to be there a long time and you physically can't afford it, do you have any money is the key to this. If you have the money, and we know the values there, and you're a homeowner occupant who's paid a proper price for the value of the property, whatever you're doing, new construction or renovation, and you're not underwater, you're going to be happier in the end that you did those things that are special and that you didn't cut back.
Justin Landis: Yeah, I think that's really great, and I can say that from all the houses we've had, we've either renovated or built. I like to have a good deal, I like to have a good price, you know that. But honestly, when I look back, a lot of times I wished I had spent more on some important things, because there's a high value of living there and using it that may not show up in the pure Excel spreadsheet of what we bought this house for and what we sold it for. But on the day to day, it's like, man, the value of this is really high. There's no crystal ball to say, in the end you will be happy, because we don't know that, we don't have that. Your journey is going to be part of it. But I learned that because I'm connected to my own renovations, my own investments, other investors, and every homeowner I've ever worked with is different, but there are some things that intertwine, and when they do, I get to pull those out to the next client and say, think about it this way. That really helps people process what's going to be important to them and if it's worth it to spend that money.
Carl Mattison: Yep.
Justin Landis: All right, that's a great segue, let's wrap up on this because I think this will be really interesting. Because you speak to so many people, you see so many things, all the different options. What is happening right now in design in Atlanta? Do you see any changes, any trends emerging, any things that are more important or less important than they used to be? What's on the cutting edge of home design right now?
Carl Mattison: Well, if we talk about things that I nix and say don't do it, no offense to the industry that has these, is ice makers in the kitchen. All I ever hear afterward is, wow, they make a lot of noise. If you have a place in your house to put a large built-in ice maker, that's in your budget on any size house, I've seen them in three bedroom, two bath houses that are modestly priced, and in million dollar homes. People put them in all types of things because it seems compact, you can find a place for it somewhere, put it somewhere quiet, and put a buffer around it. We don't usually insulate interior walls of homes between rooms, so go and insulate a wall between that room and wherever you're going to put that, if that's going to do it. I also recommend insulating walls between a ceiling and floor, upstairs and downstairs. Those things help buffer something that could be important. The other thing I think people are talking about a lot is knowing that their idea is okay. We are horribly, maybe terribly, overwhelmed by too many options and the belief that everything is going to be out of style in a couple of years. And you go, then what do you want to do? I don't know, I don't want to be off trend. Yeah, sure you do, if that's you, let's do that, it's okay to do that. We're not only supposed to look at the Atlanta metro market, we're so lucky here, we can go into tons of open houses on Saturdays and Sundays for free and get cookies, and you can see so many products. There's a lot of repetition in new construction because people are neutralizing or depersonalizing. A lot of people's algorithms are bringing them the same things on social media, and they're believing that's what everyone's doing. It's not what they're doing in Seattle, it's not what they're doing where I grew up in Vermont, it's not what they're doing in New York City. People are doing what they want, and it's okay for you to do that also, so don't get wrapped up in that. I think anyone advising anyone about what you should do next should say, figure out what you want to do.
Justin Landis: Can you think of an example recently where somebody did that and you got to the end and thought, this is an awesome choice, something that's different but it's awesome?
Carl Mattison: Well, other than the toilet with a clear door to the bedroom, which was very interesting, I'm not sure about that one. They were interesting clients, a little bit older, with a very interesting journey, and they looked at me and said, it's okay, we don't mind that. And I said, okay, your toilet faces your bedroom. That was the weirdest one. But I think a lot of the successful ones are the ones who just look to me and to themselves for curated items, something that speaks to you, as opposed to, I've seen these lights, I've seen this faucet, what one speaks to you? We then check functionality, as a renovation counselor, we check functionality, we talk price point for functionality, we look at longevity, we look at countertop materials, we look at all those types of things. But if you see a great light and say, does this go, it doesn't matter, do you love it? I will advise if it's absolutely horrible, I will tell you. But usually it's, does that speak to you, that should speak to you. My most successful projects are ones where it speaks to someone, and in the end they go, this is my kitchen, this is not someone else's kitchen.
Justin Landis: Man, Carl, I'm so thankful for all that you shared here. I'm actually going to give a little sales pitch for why Carl Mattison is so great, because as we've worked together on these, the level of intentionality, where our mirrors are, which way the door's opening, how far down the light fixture is on the pole, the tile that goes around the outside and what's the pattern, that level of detail that you help people with, I do think makes the houses really special. And I love that you've got your own style, but you also, like you said, if it speaks to them, you let them do it. And that has produced so many great results for clients. I'm always excited to see what you're working on and who you're working with, and I really appreciate you sharing your time here today.
Carl Mattison: Well, thanks so much.
Justin Landis: Awesome. All right, everybody, thanks for listening to this special episode of The Justin Landis Show. Make sure that you like or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode, and we will see you again next time.
